MVM Theorycrafting
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:17 pm
Since we've been having so much fun playing TF2 Mann Vs. Machine, I thought I'd spin up a thread to discuss strategies, loadouts and theory for MVM.
Overall Strategy
In just about every scenario, the strategy is: DPS, DPS, and more DPS. Either dishing it out or supporting it. Crowd control and debuffs are critical- we'll get to those in a bit.
Loadouts
I'll start with some comments on each class and what in my opinion are good loadouts and upgrade paths for those classes. This is only my opinion, of course.
Heavy
The Heavy is the anchor of the defense on most teams. Paired with a good engy, he's nearly unstoppable, and his continuous DPS makes him incredibly valuable. His weakness- movement speed- is not as critical if you're doing things right because he doesn't have to move much if all is going well.
Heavy Loadouts
Primary: Stock or Brass Beast. I tend to recommend the Brass Beast because the increased DPS can give you the edge you need. NEVER use any of these: Natascha, Tomislav or Huo-Long Heater. Natascha's slowdown debuff isn't useful because it can only affect one bot at a time and the reduced damage cripples the heavy's utility. The Tomislav's lack of spin-up is not helpful because you're not trying to sneak up on anything, and the reduced firing speed cripples your DPS. The Huo-Long Heater uses way too much ammo.
Secondary: Sandvich if you have it, stock shotgun if not. The Sandvich is the best option because in a pinch you can toss it to your medic or another ally for healing. You'll almost never use it normally (consuming it), and in general switching to your secondary as Heavy is something you'll do only rarely. Avoid the other secondaries for the Heavy (Dalalkohs Bar, Family Business, etc).
Melee: Gloves of Running Urgently (GRU), stock or stock replacement. Avoid at all costs most others. The GRU is my recommendation because they make you move faster and that's critical when you're moving up to the front after a respawn or need to fall back (or push forward!). The other Heavy melee weapons tend to debuff your damage, swing speed or your health and are strongly not recommended.
Soldier
The Soldier is very useful as he can deal large amounts of damage at range, does good splash damage and his upgrades make him truly fearsome. The Buff Banner makes him invaluable as a general area buff to the team and his mobility makes him the surgeon of the team- able to move quickly to apply damage to escaping bots or to take out spies going after the engy, for example.
Soldier Loadouts
Primary: Stock, Original, or (If you know how to use it) Beggar's Bazooka. The BB is a fearsome weapon but its inability to regain ammo from dispensers makes it very much an advanced choice. An argument can be made for the Black Box because it gives health on hit, but in general the reduced ammo count is a net negative. The Cow Mangler looks like a great choice on paper but its inability to be crit boosted makes it very hard to justify its use in MVM. Avoid the others (Liberty Launcher, Direct Hit) at all costs- their reduced damage and splash area make them terrible choices for MVM.
Secondary: Buff Banner or Concheror. Buff Banner is my usual choice because it gives a damage buff when used- everyone gets minicrits (35% damage increase, no falloff). The Concheror is a viable alternative choice, improving movement speed and granting self-heal on hit to all in its area of effect, and giving the soldier a passive health regen. The faster recharge time is another good argument for the Concheror. Avoid the Battalion's Backup- its primary function of providing sentry damage resistance is almost totally useless in MVM. The others are all much poorer choices, in my opinion, providing little or no benefit to the team.
Melee: Escape Plan, Equalizer or Stock. I like the Escape Plan because it lets you get out of dodge quickly, keeping with the Soldier's general theme of being mobile. The Disciplinary Action is another one you'll see from time to time, and some swear by it. In general don't worry too much about the Soldier's melee weapon because unless things are going poorly you won't need it.
Demoman
The Demo is another anchor class of the defense. His stickybomb launcher makes him the medic-murderer par excellance, which is a critical skill to have. The demo focuses on massive burst damage and setting traps to take out clusters of bots. He can also be a fearsome sustained DPS machine with the right upgrades.
Demoman Loadouts
Primary: Ali Baba's Wee Booties/Bootlegger, stock Grenade Launcher, (maybe) the Loose Cannon. A demo playing in typical fashion (there are other theories out there, but they're more esoteric and harder to get into at a basic level) will use his sticky launcher almost exclusively, and spending all his time either firing it or reloading it. That means that the Wee Booties or the Bootlegger as your primary weapon automatically provides its passive bonus of 25 health, at the cost of a weapon you'll never use. A good trade! If you're a CRACKERJACK demo, you could maybe argue for the Loch 'n Load.
Secondary: Sticky Launcher or Scottish Resistance. Both have their advantages. The Sticky is easier to use, and if you hold down the detonate button, you can do a continuous stream of detonating stickies. Or you can set nasty traps. The Scottish Resistance lets you set up multiple traps and the cost of some DPS, but properly used this balances out. However, the SR is a bigger challenge to use because you have to know where your stickies are and it can be easy to lose track of them. A full set of crit SR stickies with damage upgrades can kill most big bots in one shot. Do NOT use the shields- Splendid Screen/Chargin' Targe as they essentially make the demo useless in MVM (there are some who like playing that way, but I have never seen that being a good or helpful playstyle in MVM).
Melee: Stock or Stock Replacement. The others tend to reduce your max health or aren't useful for MVM play.
Scout
The Scout is arguably the most important member of the team, although you wouldn't think it at first. One of the core mechanics of MVM is that the bots drop cash when they are killed, and it must be collected. This money is used to buy upgrades between rounds, and without it, it's pretty much impossible to defeat an MVM match. If all the cash is collected, the team gets a bonus at the end of the round.
The Scout's role is to collect the cash, NOT to do damage (although he can do a respectable amount, it's never his focus). His secondary role is to debuff and slow the bots with his Mad Milk and Fan of War. Since the Scout has the unique ability to gain health from the collected cash, he is the obvious choice to get it.
Scout Loadouts
Primary: Force of Nature, Stock, or (if you're good) Baby Face's Blaster. The Force of Nature is my suggestion because it does a TON of damage at close range, allows you to get an extra hop by using its pushback to lift you in the air mid-jump or to get a quick escape from bots in your grill. The Shortstop and the Soda Popper aren't bad choices necessarily, but they're not in my experience the most optimal. Again, the Scout collects cash first, so his weapons are of secondary consideration.
Secondary: Mad Milk. Full stop, nothing else. With other classes/slots there's room for debate, but not on this one- the alternatives are all MUCh worse with no upsides. If you don't have Mad Milk, get it or trade for it; it is critical to helping defeat waves of bots. With a single upgrade it can apply a 35% speed reduction to any bots coated (extremely useful!). Further, when shooting enemies doused in Mad Milk, your teammates get health- the Heavy especially will get a massive survivability boost from this. The Scout should be using the Mad Milk at every opportunity on bots, and should max its upgrades at the earliest opportunity, and aside from collecting the cash, using Mad Milk liberally makes the Scout one of the best support classes in the game for MVM.
Melee Fan o' War. Period. The Fan o' War is the optimal choice in my opinion, because hitting a bot with it "marks it for death", making all damage against it mini-crits for fifteen seconds. Only one bot can be tagged at a time like this, but when you're looking at the giant Medic with a Giant Deflector Heavy, that 15 seconds of minicrits usually means the difference between nuking the Medic before the first turn and the Heavy planting the bomb.
Medic
When MVM first came out, the Medic was one of the worst choices to make, because he couldn't do damage and his healing abilities were not useful when you could get health on kill upgrades. However, that changed with the Two Cities update, making the Medic one of the most useful classes in the game. The Medic can deploy a shield to deflect all incoming projectile damage as well as do tons of damage to bots or tanks caught in it. It recharges quickly and is crucial to success on many MVM missions.
Medic Loadouts
Primary: Stock, Overdose or Crusader's Crossbow. Avoid the Blutsauger because it reduces your self-heal rate and you'll almost never be actually using your primary weapon, so its ability to heal you by doing damage is negated. Crusader's Crossbow is a decent option if you're a good shot, but again, you're so rarely going to swap away from your medigun that it's pretty much moot. Overdose makes you move faster as you build up Uber, so it's a good choice also.
Secondary: Kritzkrieg, first, last and always. Never use the other mediguns. If you do it on any pub team, you'll be kicked if you do- it's literally that stark a choice.
Melee: Ubersaw or Amputator. Ubersaw is good because you can get a swipe or two in sometimes and you can build uber much faster with it. Amputator is good for its area heal effect and +3 regen when active, so if you have to get away, it's a viable option. I prefer the Ubersaw personally.
Engineer
Again, another anchor class. Without an engineer, you won't win. His dispenser provides the team with ammo and health, and without it, the team's sustained DPS drops dramatically. His sentries provide another source of sustained DPS. Keep your engy alive, you'll need him.
Engineer Loadouts
Primary: Rescue Ranger, Pomson 6000, Stock. Rescue Ranger is useful to collect your buildings from a distance, saving them from the bots. Pomson is good for not needing ammo and for draining ubercharge (this is a very minor thing, but could potentially be useful). Avoid the others because their downsides are detrimental to your role in MVM.
Secondary: Wrangler, Short Circuit, Stock. The Wrangler on paper is a good choice but you can't repair your sentry while using it. Its biggest upside is that you can wrangle your sentry to shoot further away, and to (very important!) keep it from shooting giant bots with medics that aren't yet defeated and causing them to pop their uber. The Short Circuit was nerfed, but still has some use in deflecting incoming rockets and such.
Melee: Jag, Stock. I suggest the Jag because it lets you build faster. NEVER use the Eureka Effect or The Gunslinger, as they cripple you- you can't carry your buildings to avoid Sentry Busters with the former, and the latter replaces your main DPS with a minisentry and on defense that's useless. The Southern Hospitality is largely useless also as you're facing far too many bots for a bleed effect to be helpful, especially when you have to melee them to apply it.
Pyro
Not the most useful class in most MVM matches. If you play Pyro in Mann Up Mode you'll almost always be asked to change or get kicked. Some exceptions on maps where Pyros can airblast bots into pits frequently exist. Pyro has a lot of DPS but the fact that he has to be so close to the bots makes him a dodgy choice. On some maps entire teams swap to Pyro on the last wave with the Phlogistinator in order to do massive close-range DPS to tanks.
Pyro Loadouts
Primary:Stock, and in some situations, Phlogistinator. Pyro's airblast is one of his most effective weapons, and the other flamethrowers either nerf it or can't even do it at all. There are some scenarios where the Phlog is a good choice, because although it does less base damage, when you do a bunch of fire damage you can get guaranteed crits- with an upgraded Phlogistinator, that's the most DPS possible in the game. That means you can burn down tanks very quickly with a group of Pyros.
Secondary: Flare gun, Scorch Shot. Both let you do some damage at range and their downsides aren't going to hurt you in other ways.
Melee: Stock, Axtinguisher/Postal Pummeler. Both good choices, I'd go with the Axtinguisher in general. Avoid the other melee weapons as they tend to have downsides that are detrimental to your ability to play your role in MVM.
Sniper
I may take some heat for this, but Sniper is one of the least useful classes in MVM overall, with one caveat: A VERY good Sniper with the right upgrades is a beast. But that level of skill is rare. Generally I suggest people avoid Sniper in MVM. If someone does want to play Sniper, he will need to replace the Demoman and be the medic killer with his Explosive Headshots upgrade.
Sniper Loadouts
Primary: Machina, Hitman's Heatmaker, Stock. The negatives of the first two- the tracers they show- are meaningless in MVM because the bots don't pay attention to them.
Secondary: Jarate, nothing else. You can put people on fire out and bots coated in Jarate take mini-crits.
Melee: Stock, Shashanah. Never use the Bushwacka in MVM.
Spy
Another class I tend to recommend against, the Spy is not typically very helpful in MVM. That said, I've seen some absolutely GENIUS Spy players who literally carried the team. It's not common, though. If you have a Spy, he will need to replace the Scout and be the primary collector of cash. But he does not get health from it. The Spy's main helpful ability is his sapper, which slows the big bots down and can paralyze smaller ones in groups.
Spy Loadouts
Primary: Stock. Maybe Enforcer or L'etranger. You won't be using the primary weapon much.
Secondary: Stock. Avoid the others, they mostly give you reduced health. NEVER use the Your Eternal Reward in MVM. It's the worst possible choice, because you can't disguise.
Invisibility Watch: Stock or Cloak and Dagger. Stock is best. Don't use the Dead Ringer; bots aren't fooled by typical spy play and it's not helpful.
Sapper: Stock only. Don't use the Red Tape Recorder.
Next Post... upgrade suggestions and strategy!
Overall Strategy
In just about every scenario, the strategy is: DPS, DPS, and more DPS. Either dishing it out or supporting it. Crowd control and debuffs are critical- we'll get to those in a bit.
Loadouts
I'll start with some comments on each class and what in my opinion are good loadouts and upgrade paths for those classes. This is only my opinion, of course.
Heavy
The Heavy is the anchor of the defense on most teams. Paired with a good engy, he's nearly unstoppable, and his continuous DPS makes him incredibly valuable. His weakness- movement speed- is not as critical if you're doing things right because he doesn't have to move much if all is going well.
Heavy Loadouts
Primary: Stock or Brass Beast. I tend to recommend the Brass Beast because the increased DPS can give you the edge you need. NEVER use any of these: Natascha, Tomislav or Huo-Long Heater. Natascha's slowdown debuff isn't useful because it can only affect one bot at a time and the reduced damage cripples the heavy's utility. The Tomislav's lack of spin-up is not helpful because you're not trying to sneak up on anything, and the reduced firing speed cripples your DPS. The Huo-Long Heater uses way too much ammo.
Secondary: Sandvich if you have it, stock shotgun if not. The Sandvich is the best option because in a pinch you can toss it to your medic or another ally for healing. You'll almost never use it normally (consuming it), and in general switching to your secondary as Heavy is something you'll do only rarely. Avoid the other secondaries for the Heavy (Dalalkohs Bar, Family Business, etc).
Melee: Gloves of Running Urgently (GRU), stock or stock replacement. Avoid at all costs most others. The GRU is my recommendation because they make you move faster and that's critical when you're moving up to the front after a respawn or need to fall back (or push forward!). The other Heavy melee weapons tend to debuff your damage, swing speed or your health and are strongly not recommended.
Soldier
The Soldier is very useful as he can deal large amounts of damage at range, does good splash damage and his upgrades make him truly fearsome. The Buff Banner makes him invaluable as a general area buff to the team and his mobility makes him the surgeon of the team- able to move quickly to apply damage to escaping bots or to take out spies going after the engy, for example.
Soldier Loadouts
Primary: Stock, Original, or (If you know how to use it) Beggar's Bazooka. The BB is a fearsome weapon but its inability to regain ammo from dispensers makes it very much an advanced choice. An argument can be made for the Black Box because it gives health on hit, but in general the reduced ammo count is a net negative. The Cow Mangler looks like a great choice on paper but its inability to be crit boosted makes it very hard to justify its use in MVM. Avoid the others (Liberty Launcher, Direct Hit) at all costs- their reduced damage and splash area make them terrible choices for MVM.
Secondary: Buff Banner or Concheror. Buff Banner is my usual choice because it gives a damage buff when used- everyone gets minicrits (35% damage increase, no falloff). The Concheror is a viable alternative choice, improving movement speed and granting self-heal on hit to all in its area of effect, and giving the soldier a passive health regen. The faster recharge time is another good argument for the Concheror. Avoid the Battalion's Backup- its primary function of providing sentry damage resistance is almost totally useless in MVM. The others are all much poorer choices, in my opinion, providing little or no benefit to the team.
Melee: Escape Plan, Equalizer or Stock. I like the Escape Plan because it lets you get out of dodge quickly, keeping with the Soldier's general theme of being mobile. The Disciplinary Action is another one you'll see from time to time, and some swear by it. In general don't worry too much about the Soldier's melee weapon because unless things are going poorly you won't need it.
Demoman
The Demo is another anchor class of the defense. His stickybomb launcher makes him the medic-murderer par excellance, which is a critical skill to have. The demo focuses on massive burst damage and setting traps to take out clusters of bots. He can also be a fearsome sustained DPS machine with the right upgrades.
Demoman Loadouts
Primary: Ali Baba's Wee Booties/Bootlegger, stock Grenade Launcher, (maybe) the Loose Cannon. A demo playing in typical fashion (there are other theories out there, but they're more esoteric and harder to get into at a basic level) will use his sticky launcher almost exclusively, and spending all his time either firing it or reloading it. That means that the Wee Booties or the Bootlegger as your primary weapon automatically provides its passive bonus of 25 health, at the cost of a weapon you'll never use. A good trade! If you're a CRACKERJACK demo, you could maybe argue for the Loch 'n Load.
Secondary: Sticky Launcher or Scottish Resistance. Both have their advantages. The Sticky is easier to use, and if you hold down the detonate button, you can do a continuous stream of detonating stickies. Or you can set nasty traps. The Scottish Resistance lets you set up multiple traps and the cost of some DPS, but properly used this balances out. However, the SR is a bigger challenge to use because you have to know where your stickies are and it can be easy to lose track of them. A full set of crit SR stickies with damage upgrades can kill most big bots in one shot. Do NOT use the shields- Splendid Screen/Chargin' Targe as they essentially make the demo useless in MVM (there are some who like playing that way, but I have never seen that being a good or helpful playstyle in MVM).
Melee: Stock or Stock Replacement. The others tend to reduce your max health or aren't useful for MVM play.
Scout
The Scout is arguably the most important member of the team, although you wouldn't think it at first. One of the core mechanics of MVM is that the bots drop cash when they are killed, and it must be collected. This money is used to buy upgrades between rounds, and without it, it's pretty much impossible to defeat an MVM match. If all the cash is collected, the team gets a bonus at the end of the round.
The Scout's role is to collect the cash, NOT to do damage (although he can do a respectable amount, it's never his focus). His secondary role is to debuff and slow the bots with his Mad Milk and Fan of War. Since the Scout has the unique ability to gain health from the collected cash, he is the obvious choice to get it.
Scout Loadouts
Primary: Force of Nature, Stock, or (if you're good) Baby Face's Blaster. The Force of Nature is my suggestion because it does a TON of damage at close range, allows you to get an extra hop by using its pushback to lift you in the air mid-jump or to get a quick escape from bots in your grill. The Shortstop and the Soda Popper aren't bad choices necessarily, but they're not in my experience the most optimal. Again, the Scout collects cash first, so his weapons are of secondary consideration.
Secondary: Mad Milk. Full stop, nothing else. With other classes/slots there's room for debate, but not on this one- the alternatives are all MUCh worse with no upsides. If you don't have Mad Milk, get it or trade for it; it is critical to helping defeat waves of bots. With a single upgrade it can apply a 35% speed reduction to any bots coated (extremely useful!). Further, when shooting enemies doused in Mad Milk, your teammates get health- the Heavy especially will get a massive survivability boost from this. The Scout should be using the Mad Milk at every opportunity on bots, and should max its upgrades at the earliest opportunity, and aside from collecting the cash, using Mad Milk liberally makes the Scout one of the best support classes in the game for MVM.
Melee Fan o' War. Period. The Fan o' War is the optimal choice in my opinion, because hitting a bot with it "marks it for death", making all damage against it mini-crits for fifteen seconds. Only one bot can be tagged at a time like this, but when you're looking at the giant Medic with a Giant Deflector Heavy, that 15 seconds of minicrits usually means the difference between nuking the Medic before the first turn and the Heavy planting the bomb.
Medic
When MVM first came out, the Medic was one of the worst choices to make, because he couldn't do damage and his healing abilities were not useful when you could get health on kill upgrades. However, that changed with the Two Cities update, making the Medic one of the most useful classes in the game. The Medic can deploy a shield to deflect all incoming projectile damage as well as do tons of damage to bots or tanks caught in it. It recharges quickly and is crucial to success on many MVM missions.
Medic Loadouts
Primary: Stock, Overdose or Crusader's Crossbow. Avoid the Blutsauger because it reduces your self-heal rate and you'll almost never be actually using your primary weapon, so its ability to heal you by doing damage is negated. Crusader's Crossbow is a decent option if you're a good shot, but again, you're so rarely going to swap away from your medigun that it's pretty much moot. Overdose makes you move faster as you build up Uber, so it's a good choice also.
Secondary: Kritzkrieg, first, last and always. Never use the other mediguns. If you do it on any pub team, you'll be kicked if you do- it's literally that stark a choice.
Melee: Ubersaw or Amputator. Ubersaw is good because you can get a swipe or two in sometimes and you can build uber much faster with it. Amputator is good for its area heal effect and +3 regen when active, so if you have to get away, it's a viable option. I prefer the Ubersaw personally.
Engineer
Again, another anchor class. Without an engineer, you won't win. His dispenser provides the team with ammo and health, and without it, the team's sustained DPS drops dramatically. His sentries provide another source of sustained DPS. Keep your engy alive, you'll need him.
Engineer Loadouts
Primary: Rescue Ranger, Pomson 6000, Stock. Rescue Ranger is useful to collect your buildings from a distance, saving them from the bots. Pomson is good for not needing ammo and for draining ubercharge (this is a very minor thing, but could potentially be useful). Avoid the others because their downsides are detrimental to your role in MVM.
Secondary: Wrangler, Short Circuit, Stock. The Wrangler on paper is a good choice but you can't repair your sentry while using it. Its biggest upside is that you can wrangle your sentry to shoot further away, and to (very important!) keep it from shooting giant bots with medics that aren't yet defeated and causing them to pop their uber. The Short Circuit was nerfed, but still has some use in deflecting incoming rockets and such.
Melee: Jag, Stock. I suggest the Jag because it lets you build faster. NEVER use the Eureka Effect or The Gunslinger, as they cripple you- you can't carry your buildings to avoid Sentry Busters with the former, and the latter replaces your main DPS with a minisentry and on defense that's useless. The Southern Hospitality is largely useless also as you're facing far too many bots for a bleed effect to be helpful, especially when you have to melee them to apply it.
Pyro
Not the most useful class in most MVM matches. If you play Pyro in Mann Up Mode you'll almost always be asked to change or get kicked. Some exceptions on maps where Pyros can airblast bots into pits frequently exist. Pyro has a lot of DPS but the fact that he has to be so close to the bots makes him a dodgy choice. On some maps entire teams swap to Pyro on the last wave with the Phlogistinator in order to do massive close-range DPS to tanks.
Pyro Loadouts
Primary:Stock, and in some situations, Phlogistinator. Pyro's airblast is one of his most effective weapons, and the other flamethrowers either nerf it or can't even do it at all. There are some scenarios where the Phlog is a good choice, because although it does less base damage, when you do a bunch of fire damage you can get guaranteed crits- with an upgraded Phlogistinator, that's the most DPS possible in the game. That means you can burn down tanks very quickly with a group of Pyros.
Secondary: Flare gun, Scorch Shot. Both let you do some damage at range and their downsides aren't going to hurt you in other ways.
Melee: Stock, Axtinguisher/Postal Pummeler. Both good choices, I'd go with the Axtinguisher in general. Avoid the other melee weapons as they tend to have downsides that are detrimental to your ability to play your role in MVM.
Sniper
I may take some heat for this, but Sniper is one of the least useful classes in MVM overall, with one caveat: A VERY good Sniper with the right upgrades is a beast. But that level of skill is rare. Generally I suggest people avoid Sniper in MVM. If someone does want to play Sniper, he will need to replace the Demoman and be the medic killer with his Explosive Headshots upgrade.
Sniper Loadouts
Primary: Machina, Hitman's Heatmaker, Stock. The negatives of the first two- the tracers they show- are meaningless in MVM because the bots don't pay attention to them.
Secondary: Jarate, nothing else. You can put people on fire out and bots coated in Jarate take mini-crits.
Melee: Stock, Shashanah. Never use the Bushwacka in MVM.
Spy
Another class I tend to recommend against, the Spy is not typically very helpful in MVM. That said, I've seen some absolutely GENIUS Spy players who literally carried the team. It's not common, though. If you have a Spy, he will need to replace the Scout and be the primary collector of cash. But he does not get health from it. The Spy's main helpful ability is his sapper, which slows the big bots down and can paralyze smaller ones in groups.
Spy Loadouts
Primary: Stock. Maybe Enforcer or L'etranger. You won't be using the primary weapon much.
Secondary: Stock. Avoid the others, they mostly give you reduced health. NEVER use the Your Eternal Reward in MVM. It's the worst possible choice, because you can't disguise.
Invisibility Watch: Stock or Cloak and Dagger. Stock is best. Don't use the Dead Ringer; bots aren't fooled by typical spy play and it's not helpful.
Sapper: Stock only. Don't use the Red Tape Recorder.
Next Post... upgrade suggestions and strategy!