Sentinel versus Guardian?

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Dodd Formeianna
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Sentinel versus Guardian?

Post by Dodd Formeianna » Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:45 pm

So - I've been researching the classes a bit more, and I have a few questions, not sure if anyone can provide insight since the game hasn't been released yet.

Based purely on skill abilities and story, I'm leading heavily towards Sentinel. I've also been eyeballing the Sage, because I like the idea of telekinesis, and there seems to be more interesting companion characters. But if I'm going purely on melee combat abilities, Sentinel seems to be more my gig.

As I see it with JK, it's just a straight-up vanilla jedi type. The advanced classes for JK are a theoretical tradeoff between lower armor and higher dps (and potentially some burst dps capability), and higher armor with lower dps (and greater threat generation).

The BW forums seem to be disputing this since some argue that a properly specced and geared Guardian has dps potential on-par with the Sentinel. Does this make any sense? Why then would someone just want to have deliberately lower armor ratings? At this point, is there any substantiation behind these claims or are these still just the speculative musings of Bioware fanboys?
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Re: Sentinel versus Guardian?

Post by Blackferne » Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:09 pm

Dodd Formeianna wrote:So - I've been researching the classes a bit more, and I have a few questions, not sure if anyone can provide insight since the game hasn't been released yet.

Based purely on skill abilities and story, I'm leading heavily towards Sentinel. I've also been eyeballing the Sage, because I like the idea of telekinesis, and there seems to be more interesting companion characters. But if I'm going purely on melee combat abilities, Sentinel seems to be more my gig.

As I see it with JK, it's just a straight-up vanilla jedi type. The advanced classes for JK are a theoretical tradeoff between lower armor and higher dps (and potentially some burst dps capability), and higher armor with lower dps (and greater threat generation).

The BW forums seem to be disputing this since some argue that a properly specced and geared Guardian has dps potential on-par with the Sentinel. Does this make any sense? Why then would someone just want to have deliberately lower armor ratings? At this point, is there any substantiation behind these claims or are these still just the speculative musings of Bioware fanboys?
The thing to remember is if you go Jedi Knight Guardian you have 3 talent trees to choose one of which is tanking the other two are (universal Jedi Knight talents) and a dps tree. I suspect that the benefits from armor in teh tanking tree are mostly boosted by talents, so the DPS tree might be on par with sentinal teh same way in WoW a DPS warrior can have similar DPS output with a Rogue.

Just a few thoughts though.
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Re: Sentinel versus Guardian?

Post by Dodd Formeianna » Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:21 pm

Blackferne wrote: The thing to remember is if you go Jedi Knight Guardian you have 3 talent trees to choose one of which is tanking the other two are (universal Jedi Knight talents) and a dps tree. I suspect that the benefits from armor in teh tanking tree are mostly boosted by talents, so the DPS tree might be on par with sentinal teh same way in WoW a DPS warrior can have similar DPS output with a Rogue.

Just a few thoughts though.
Thanks, I guess I'll need to see teh talent trees before I make a final decision on class.

Decisions, decisions...
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Re: Sentinel versus Guardian?

Post by Furiel » Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:27 pm

It makes sense from a certain point of view. (Sorry I thought I'd channel my inner Ben Kenobi since it was a Jedi question)

DPS is balanced around survivability and utility, so without knowing all of the exact details since I'm not in beta, it seems that most classes have roughly the same amount of utility, so if we assume that, then the only thing to keep a DPS speced Guardian from doing the same amount of DPS as a Sentinal is survivability, which assumedly goes to the Guardian with his heavy armor compared to the medium armored Sentinal. However heavy armor in and amongst itself isn't a huge difference in survivability, so I don't expect there to be a large difference in DPS between a Vigilence specced Guardian and a Sentinel assuming equivalent gear.

As to your question of why someone would choose sentinal for DPS when the Vig spec would give roughly the same DPS and heavy armor, well there is style for one, and also look. Some people would probably prefer to dual wield over single saber. There's how the armor sets look in general. There is also how the class plays. Just because they are both melee DPS doesn't mean they play that similar. Take for example Ret Pallies and Ehn Shamans. Both are melee DPS. Hell, I play both right now in WoW. On average they are capable of roughly the same DPS at the same gear levels. But they don't play anything alike. To me I look at each AC as it's own class because the ACs are going to radically change how your class is played. So using what I listed above it's very possible that the Guardian and the Sentinal will both play very different even though they are doing the same thing, so personal taste for which playstyle you prefer could come into play as well.
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DPS - Furiel: Commando, T'ony: Slinger, Kessilee: VG, Ziraava: Sent
Tank - Montae: Shadow, Gaen: Guardian
Heals - Kam'ryn: Sage, Sabran: Soundrel

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Re: Sentinel versus Guardian?

Post by Blackferne » Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:19 pm

Furiel makes a good point on the utility front. It could very well be that the tank AC's DPS spec has fewer utility CC options or group buffs than the other AC's DPS options.
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Re: Sentinel versus Guardian?

Post by Furiel » Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:35 pm

Blackferne wrote:Furiel makes a good point on the utility front. It could very well be that the tank AC's DPS spec has fewer utility CC options or group buffs than the other AC's DPS options.
I kinda expect that will actually be the case. I don't think it'll show up in the CC area as much as it might in the group buff and enemy debuff options, but for those ACs that have 2 DPS trees I've always kinda assumed one would be more of a pure DD spec and the other would be more of a DPS/utility spec, and the ones that only have 1 DPS option would probably be more in the middle.

So like for the JK, for pure personal DPS they probably rank
sentinal - combat
guardian - vigilence
sentinal - watchman
sentinal - focus
guardian - focus
guardian - defense
They say when you go on a quest for vengence to dig two graves. They underestimate me.

The Plush Family:
DPS - Furiel: Commando, T'ony: Slinger, Kessilee: VG, Ziraava: Sent
Tank - Montae: Shadow, Gaen: Guardian
Heals - Kam'ryn: Sage, Sabran: Soundrel

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Re: Sentinel versus Guardian?

Post by Blackferne » Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:39 pm

I was just thinking of warrior/pally DPS vs rogues or shaman etc in regards to the survivability vs utility scale. When I dps on g-rage I feel extremely limited in my cc/buff/debuff options versus when I'm on my mage, but I know I can also offtank for a short bit in ways my mage never could.
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Re: Sentinel versus Guardian?

Post by Sir Psyko » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:11 pm

It really sucks being in Beta sometimes... I can't say things because it's hard to remember what's been released and what hasn't...

Talent trees are out there if you look... http://torguild.net/calculator/

I cannot verify (well I could, but won't) that the skills are in the same locations with the same stats in the current build.
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Re: Sentinel versus Guardian?

Post by Furiel » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:15 pm

Sir Psyko wrote:It really sucks being in Beta sometimes... I can't say things because it's hard to remember what's been released and what hasn't...
Hopefully this will be a non-issue shortly :shifty:
They say when you go on a quest for vengence to dig two graves. They underestimate me.

The Plush Family:
DPS - Furiel: Commando, T'ony: Slinger, Kessilee: VG, Ziraava: Sent
Tank - Montae: Shadow, Gaen: Guardian
Heals - Kam'ryn: Sage, Sabran: Soundrel

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Re: Sentinel versus Guardian?

Post by Josfe » Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:21 pm

I know I'm a bit late to the party here but I figure I'll offer some of my experiance.

I was in a group with Towelle (DPS Spec'd Guardian) and I'm a DPS spec'd Sentinel. We both attacked a mob of the same level and killed the mob at the exact same time. So damage wise there is no noticeable difference that I could tell.

Main Differences:

Guardians Get Heavy Armor: Stat wise the heavy armor is more robust than what the Sentinels get but another key thing I've noticed is that the guardian armor LOOKS better than anything I've seen for Sentinel's and there is more variety of looks with the heavy armor than there is with medium armor.

Sentinels Get A Second Saber: Instead of getting the heavy armor Sentinels get a second lightsaber, this is actually a huge stat boost when you consider that you are essentially doubling your force power, and crits. As a result we get stuck with the medium armor (which has less variety and looks aweful most of the time).

Other significant differences:

It seems to me that Bioware made a slight mistake when they were dishing out gear to the vendors around the planets because after you hit level 30 as a Sentinel it is almost impossible to find Might modifications of decent quality. Commendation vendors rarely carry the appropriate level of them (They'll have guardian armor 15 and 16 but they only carry Might Armor 14 as an example), And the Auction House rarely ever has them. In fact as an artifice i can't even make one set of Might Enhancements because they simply don't exist for that level.

This has resulted in me using mods and enhancements that are typically 3-6 levels below my level. And that makes doing quests sometimes much harder than it would be if I had a Guardian. I'm hoping that I won't run into the same issue once I hit level 50.

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Re: Sentinel versus Guardian?

Post by Furiel » Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:37 pm

Josfe I'm 400 cybertech so I can make Might armoring and might mods for you at any level. I ran out of mats and was low on cash so I haven't been harvesting lately, but I'm trying to get all of the 40+ armoring and mods researched to blue level right now for people so they can keep up to date. Just sucks for you that you are a little ahead fo the curve right now so I haven't gotten everything unlocked for you yet.
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The Plush Family:
DPS - Furiel: Commando, T'ony: Slinger, Kessilee: VG, Ziraava: Sent
Tank - Montae: Shadow, Gaen: Guardian
Heals - Kam'ryn: Sage, Sabran: Soundrel

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Re: Sentinel versus Guardian?

Post by Josfe » Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:29 pm

Thanks Furiel.

I may need to take you up on that offer especially since I just noticed that not even the Corellia Commendations vendor has Might 22 armor (while it does have Guardian and other variations of 22 armor that high) so even after I hit 50 it's going to be difficult to find the items that are level appropriate for me.

But before I go all out on armor upgrades I really need to give the guide I linked for Sentenils a thourough read through. I'm boggled by the fact that might mods enhancements and armor are so incredibly sparse and I kind of feel like it would've been a HUGE error on biowares part to leave an entire class's gear out of the vendors. So I want to make sure i'm not missing something, like an alternative to might armor that would provide me with better results. Or perhaps some different rotations of abilities that would allow me to forgo armor upgrades for another couple of levels.

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Re: Sentinel versus Guardian?

Post by njessi » Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:59 pm

To add a wrinkle to the Sentinel/Guardian debate, where do Jedi Consular Shadows fit in? Comparison-wise?
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Re: Sentinel versus Guardian?

Post by Dashl » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:22 am

I don't know much about the Shadow class. I know 99% of the ones I have come across during quests think they are main tanks, then get trashed pretty quick. I am a Sentinel, Watchman spec, and I love it. I just killed another Champion by myself again, didn't use a medpac, because Doc is awesome. Just sucks that you get him so late in the game. With my crits/burns that also heal me, (and the group) I feel it helps out. I started PvP the other night, and after i started using all my abilities, and using the proper rotation of skills, I was a wrecking crew in Huttball. I don't know where to take the ball, and I didn't get a pass off, but I thought I was doing pretty good, had 31 kills and 2 deaths one round. I was coming in third usually in damage.

I agree with Josfe that finding Might gear is a pain, and that I have more Guardian mods in my gear, which is why my endurance is crazy high for a Sentinel right now.

Force Leap-Cauterize-merciless slash-Overload Saber- then slash a few times. Slash in that tree can refresh Cauterize, which puts the burn on them. Overload saber, when it hits, can crit/heal. Force leap in this tree has a zero meter range, so I don't have to back up, just to leap back in and build Focus. Bul, Joun, and Jeezbus probably noticed I had to do that a lot during the SD-0 fight from week one, but I don't have to do that anymore. I really like the spec right now. I just need better looking armor.
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Re: Sentinel versus Guardian?

Post by njessi » Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:35 pm

I'm planning a Watchman spec for later on, but right now I'm leveling as combat. Simpler, more bursty, and better for soloing (though I may change my mind on that - it's mostly what I read). I think the watchman is a stronger spec for end-game content. The plan for Doc is, around lvl 30, do class quests ONLY and grab Doc, then return and finish up all the crap I missed. I will be dragging a certain husband along to help.
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Re: Sentinel versus Guardian?

Post by Dashl » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:50 pm

I think it is crazy the Knight gets Doc after finishing Balmorra in the mid 30's, but the Sith side gets their version of the Doc on the same planet, but at around level 15. It was a huge game changer when I got Doc.
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Re: Sentinel versus Guardian?

Post by Blackferne » Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:03 pm

I'm going to make C2-N2 a healbot for Remi as he levels and see how that goes.
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Re: Sentinel versus Guardian?

Post by Bulwark » Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:12 pm

Dashl wrote:I think it is crazy the Knight gets Doc after finishing Balmorra in the mid 30's, but the Sith side gets their version of the Doc on the same planet, but at around level 15. It was a huge game changer when I got Doc.
Same thing with Mako and Elara. Sith gets Doc as first companion, we have to wait another 15 or 20 levels.

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Re: Sentinel versus Guardian?

Post by Furiel » Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:19 pm

It just makes us better players and we have to learn our strengths and weaknesses better at the early stages because we don't have a pocket healer to bail us out from day 1 is all.
They say when you go on a quest for vengence to dig two graves. They underestimate me.

The Plush Family:
DPS - Furiel: Commando, T'ony: Slinger, Kessilee: VG, Ziraava: Sent
Tank - Montae: Shadow, Gaen: Guardian
Heals - Kam'ryn: Sage, Sabran: Soundrel

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