Flashpoint Friday may return

[Jimer Lins]

I'm waiting for a response from the new Community team at BioWare about Flashpoint Friday- I want to restart it but I want assurances up front and guidance about what I am and am not allowed to do. If I get those assurances and guidance, I'm looking forward to having a new round of Flashpoint Friday and making it a tradition on our new home of Canderous Ordo.

Are any of you folks interested in continuing/rebooting the event?

[Marrkin]

While I wasn't yet part of the Alvis family at the time this was occuring, I would be totally down for this sort of thing. Friday's is one of my few days where I can actually sit and take my time to run FP's. So I think it would be great.

[Darklinda]

and it has to be friday...

if you do it i will try to start things early or end it late

[Jimer Lins]

I still haven't heard anything from my inquiry, so I expect they will not respond until next week. It's possible I could hear something today, but at this point I don't think it likely.

I suppose it's also possible they'll simply not respond at all, but I don't think that's very probable. I'll let everyone know when and if I hear anything. Here's hoping to a resurgence of FF! I think it would go off really well on Canderous Ordo, given how many people were on fleet this morning alone.

[Blackferne]

Various factors week to week, but the default is jess raids and I critter wrangle on fridays. I could do it, but I'd feel bad telling a pug to wait 5 minutes because my daughter needs something. After she is in bed at 930 local though I'm fine.

[Jimer Lins]

The show starts at 7 PM Pacific, 10 PM Eastern, so 9:30 Texas time is only half an hour into it. I think we can find ways to accomodate ya.

[Fynn]

It's funny you posted this, I was thinking about FF's last night. I'm in for weeks I'm not working. Only issue I can see is that with the implementation of 1.3 and the shiny LFG tool, we may not be able to/need to flashpoint the same way we previously did. We can cross that bridge when we get to it though.

[Staris]

It's funny you posted this, I was thinking about FF's last night. I'm in for weeks I'm not working. Only issue I can see is that with the implementation of 1.3 and the shiny LFG tool, we may not be able to/need to flashpoint the same way we previously did. We can cross that bridge when we get to it though.

I'm totally up for it and even with 1.3 there will still be a need that need just might not be as big and would just been you start queuing up for the different flashpoints and that gets you into the group.

[Jimer Lins]

BioWare's response:

Dear (Jimer)

Thank you for contacting us regarding your complaint about ticket number (X).

We have now completed our investigation into your complaint. After reviewing your case, we can confirm that it was acted on correctly, in full compliance with our policies and procedures. As such, we will not be pursuing this issue any further.

I would like reiterate what was communicated to you on 27/02/2012, please note that, while we welcome such positive and creative participation in our community, you should consider that posting these announcement repeatedly in general chat might not be welcomed by all other players in chat.

You also enquired if it is possible to inform players of your upcoming shows, yes only if they are willing to discuss it with you but as per the Rules of Conduct:

"Post messages for any purpose other than personal communication, including without limitation advertising or promotional messaging, chain letters, pyramid schemes, or other commercial activities"

In essence you may only discuss it with other players if they are willing to particpate in that particular discussion.


Thank you for your diligence in bringing this matter to our attention. As a valued customer, your feedback is very important to us.

My reply:

Hi there,

Thank you for your reply to this issue. However, I am afraid that I'm going to have to ask for further clarification, because again I do not feel my questions were resolved or answered. I regret having to continue to push back on this, but your answers have so far not addressed the actual issues.

Please see my further response inline to your message below.

We have now completed our investigation into your complaint. After reviewing your case, we can confirm that it was acted on correctly, in full compliance with our policies and procedures. As such, we will not be pursuing this issue any further.

If this was the case, then why was the warning rescinded? The sequence of events was that I received the warning, I pushed back on it, and after some back and forth it was rescinded.

Also- and this is important: You have yet to inform me specifically what it was that I did incorrectly that generated a warning in the first place. Despite having asked repeatedly, I have not been told if it was for announcing the show in general chat, or if it was because I included the URL or just because someone thought I was talking about it too much.

All I was ever told was that it was a rules violation and a chat message I had posted in General Chat was supplied. I was never told- despite my repeated, polite and very clear requests- if the violation was for talking about the show, including the URL, talking about the show too much or some other issue.

If you want people to modify their behavior, you must be able to clearly communicate to them what the problem is.

I would like reiterate what was communicated to you on 27/02/2012, please note that, while we welcome such positive and creative participation in our community, you should consider that posting these announcement repeatedly in general chat might not be welcomed by all other players in chat.

That is why I specifically asked you to answer how frequently one can talk about this type of thing. I sympathise with your desire not to set a precedent for someone to walk right up to a line, put their toe on it and say they're not technically breaking the rules, but please understand that is not my intent.

I am trying to make sure that I won't run afoul of someone who thinks mentioning something twice is spamming or that linking a URL once is violating the rules. Your responses serve only to tell me that if I start trying to do this event again, I'm at the mercy of a very subjective interpretation of the rules by whoever happens to be around.

Remember, in this game there are people who are basically jerks. They will report people to the support team for no other reason than "the lulz". If I'm reported for talking about my show, will the GM who gets the report be using their own interpretation of this statement:

"posting these announcements repeatedly in general chat might not be welcomed by all other players in chat."

Should I then report everyone who is spamming General with "LFG DPS PST" every 30 seconds? I certainly don't welcome that, but it would kind of make me a jackass to report it.

You need to tell me what's allowed, not just be general.

Also, I take strong exception to how this has been characterized. If you go back over the logs, you will see that I was not simply copy and pasting the same text over and over. I was actually typing each thing out and rarely would I repeat myself.

Let me ask you this, point blank, and please answer with a yes or a no:

If I said this:

"Hey folks, my guild is doing an event called Flashpoint Friday. We're doing Flashpoints with any and all comers and hope you can join us. I'm covering the event live on SHOUTcast, you can tune in at http://listen.siradio.fm! - Let me know if you're trying to get someone for your Flashpoint group!"

Every five minutes, would that be allowed? If no, would every ten minutes be acceptable?

If not, can I use something like this:

"Hey everyone, The Church of Alvis is doing our regular weekly event, Flashpoint Friday- join us for a Flashpoint or let me know if you need help getting your group filled out. I'm covering the event live with music on SHOUTcast- if you want to listen in, send me a /whisper and I'll give you the details!"

Again, would that be acceptable every five minutes? Every ten minutes?

If that is unacceptable, can I say this:

"Hey everyone, The Church of Alvis is doing our weekly event- Flashpoint Friday! If you want to join us for a Flashpoint or need someone to round out your Flashpoint group, let me know. I'm also covering the event live on SHOUTcast. Join us in our chat channel "AlvisRadio" (/cjoin AlvisRadio) for more info."

If I used this, can I say it every five minutes? Every ten minutes?

If the answer is that I simply cannot discuss the show in General Chat at all, then come out and just bloody say so. Of course, I don't think that's what you mean, because that would not make any sense at all. It would also be totally at odds with how General Chat currently works on the Fleet. It's mostly "LFG" or "Join my guild" spam.

Don't put me in a position of having to parse YOUR rules and these vague proscriptions. I get enough of that doing HIPAA compliance work in my day job.

You also enquired if it is possible to inform players of your upcoming shows, yes only if they are willing to discuss it with you but as per the Rules of Conduct:

"Post messages for any purpose other than personal communication, including without limitation advertising or promotional messaging, chain letters, pyramid schemes, or other commercial activities"

While I appreciate that you tried to answer some of my concerns, this isn't really an answer. If I mention something in general chat about the show at ALL, that would arguably be a violation of that statement. Is that the intent you wish to convey? Do you hold people who advertise their guilds ad nauseum on the fleet to the same standard?

In fact, any mention of any event in-game would fall under the stricture of "any purpose other than personal communication". If my guild is holding an RP event and we mention it in general chat, that's not personal communication.

Look, I understand you need flexibility, but in my case you're not actually answering my question.

In essence you may only discuss it with other players if they are willing to particpate in that particular discussion.

Do me a favor and read this to yourself as though you were me. Please.

What does it even MEAN? If I read that one way, it would mean I can't talk in general chat about anything at all, which is patent nonsense. I cannot get prior approval from everyone who might read what I have to say in any context.

Thank you for your diligence in bringing this matter to our attention. As a valued customer, your feedback is very important to us.

I certainly hope so. I understand and respect that you have a tough job to do, and that people trying to pin you down to a "bright line" rule are probably pretty frustrating. I'd like you to understand that my reasons for trying to get clarity on this issue is that I want to avoid running afoul of vague interpretations. Different people will interpret what you've said above and the rules in general differently, and frankly: Your rules don't really address this kind of thing well.

I am NOT trying to find out where the line is so I can walk right up to it and thumb my nose. Please understand that; I am sincerely trying to find a path that both myself and the SWTOR support team can be comfortable with to avoid problems on both sides.

[Marrkin]

Jesus, they could confuse a raw concrete wall with their obscurity.

Do they even have people with pulses generating these answers sometimes?

[Raikir]

Well said. I have a feeling that your case was given the once-over before, and given a once-over of the previous once-over summation the next time.

[Fynn]

Very well said. I hope their reply is equally intelligent...though I have my doubts.

[Dodd Formeianna]

Jimer I fully endorse your attempts at making common sense more...erm...well...

...common. This is sorely needed in a world where people seem hesitant to think for themselves.

[Leth]

I feel that we may have stumbled upon a possible answer tonight. If we start out with a dance party and tell people that we are listening to your station it may get around their "no spam" clause. Let people know that it is a station for gamers by gamers and related to flshpoint fridays. People may start tunning in more. Just something to think about and build on.

[Darklinda]

or like i sayd to jimer the other day we anounce it has the guild flashpoint friday and we we start the FP just tell them that we have a radio show on the air at this time ...

[Jimer Lins]

And the saga concludes, not with a bang but a whimper.

Dear (Jimer),

We are contacting you regarding your most recent queries about your in-game messaging.

We rescinded the warning in this case as it was felt that as an effort was made to fully understand the situation on your part, the situation did not warrant a warning.

As outlined in our Rules of Conduct: "Even when not specified, we Electronic Arts and Bioware have the sole right and final judgment of how to interpret and apply these rules and guidelines to any specific circumstance and situation, including proper punishment or exception."

The warning was received, as detailed in our previous response, due to a breach of the following Rule: "[Do not] Post messages for any purpose other than personal communication, including without limitation advertising or promotional messaging, chain letters, pyramid schemes, or other commercial activities."

The examples that you have listed clearly promote something not officially linked to Star Wars ™: The Old Republic™. The messages posted amounted to advertising the show and cannot be allowed.

As you must understand, we cannot account for every possible eventuality, and our Rules of Conduct try to give players guidelines on what to avoid. With spamming, we can only reference the following entry: "[Do not] Disrupt the flow of chat with vulgar language, abusiveness, hitting the return key repeatedly or inputting large images so the screen goes by too fast to read, use of excessive shouting [all caps] in an attempt to disturb other users, “spamming” or flooding [posting repetitive text]."

Each report is dealt with on a case by case basis and we cannot give any further detail on the limitations of the Rules. Although your messaging would violate our Rules of Conduct, we really appreciate our community and the efforts to foster a fun and vibrant atmosphere.

We can suggest that if you would like to spread the word about your SHOUTCast, you can do so on the Forums under the Community section at http://www.swtor.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=88.

We cannot provide any more detail on this issue and we hope that this will answer your questions.

[Marrkin]

Well, that's bullshit IMO. But on the other hand I think Leth may be right, if we are doin our thing and only "mention" that we are dancing or whatever while listening to the show, this wouldn't necessarily be considered "advertisement".

And best if Jimer probably shouldn't be the one to do the majority of this "mentioning"

[Maizan]

So in summary:

1. We took back our slap to the face cause we felt sorry for you.
2. Flashpoint Friday is not copy righted by us or Lucas so you can't use it.
3. Go to your community site and post stuff there, we don't really care about those. And we will post our warnings about spamming and use of names that we don't own when your post your stuff there too.
4. Even though we say we keep logs of everything, well, we don't. That's one of our intimidation tactics.
And finally
5. It's our sandbox, so go F' yourself.

[Staris]

What I wish we knew was if we aren't allowed to mention siradio at all, since that could be seen as advertisement, or if when we mention anything having to say to ask us for the address.

If we knew that we wouldn't be spamming if we mention in chat at the start of the show, halfway point, and thanking at the end of the show.

Then while the show is going on do the dance party and anyone who asks or when we join a flashpoint let them know about the show.